What’s Happening in the United Methodist Church

Interview Transcript

Chuck: Well, hey welcome everyone. My name is Chuck Fenwick, I'm actually the lead pastor at New Haven United Methodist Church in the Northeast District and talking today with Russ Abel who is the conference superintendent of the Northeast and the East District. So he has, I guess the best way to put it is a crap ton of churches that he's in charge of

Russ: It’s the biggest two-point charge around.

Chuck: There we go. Yeah, I like that. So maybe crap ton wasn’t the best way to put it but a lot of churches. So anyway, Russ you were a local pastor and then you were appointed as a conference superintendent. So just kind of introduce yourself and what you're all about what you do?

Russ: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you Chuck and thanks for having me today.So I've been in Ministry for 30 years 27 of those years were in

20 local churches. I have served two-point charges and mid-sized churches and a large church. I've been blessed by the ministry. I've been blessed by a tenancy, which a lot of people roll their eyes at but it really has been a blessing to move from town to town with my family.

My family's grown now and they've started over so we have three three grandchildren. And very thankful for them and I'm married to Michelle who just retired after 30 years of teaching special education. So, I’m very thankful for her.

Chuck: Wow, so that's that's a lot going on. So that's good and some of you if you're around the area where I am in New Haven in Fort Wayne area, know Russ. He was a pastor in Fort Wayne and now he travels all over the Northeast and East part of the state from all the way from the Michigan line down past Muncie.

Russ: The East District covers all the way down there and the Northeast District to about 25 miles south of I-70

Chuck: Okay, so that's a lot. Wow. Alright, I didn’t even know that– that's great. Well, we'll get right to the reason why we're doing this today. Over the last several months weeks– maybe even a couple years –I guess you could say there's been a lot of information going around regarding the United Methodist Church, and even a new Global Denomination and there's been talk with churches about deciding to disaffiliate or leave the United Methodist Church. And so it's raised a lot of questions. And so we want to address those and look at some of what has happened and even in some ways what hasn't happened. And so that's what this is all about. So, let’s just dive right in.

Here's the first question I have for you. Can you talk about the changes that have happened in the United Methodist Church? Can you kind of explain a little bit about what has and has not happened in the recent years and we aren’t talking last 20 years maybe in the last Three or four years what really has happened and what hasn't happened?

Russ: Sure. Thanks for the question. Well, the very very short answer to your question in regard to human sexuality, in particular, is that nothing's changed. Nothing has changed so far regarding our stance. The book of discipline is the same as it's been in general for a very long time. There have been changes not with the book of discipline. But with who we are in the last several years there they've always at least as far as I've been around there have always been conversations and questions and arguments over how we should view theologically how we should view the issues around human sexuality. So that's not new, but it's intensified, and that's a change. 

The only real changes to the book of discipline happened in 2019 and our stance didn't change, but there was a paragraph added in that special called General Conference paragraph two five five three for disaffiliation which allowed churches away. To leave the denomination as amatter of conscience in regard to human sexuality. So that change was very specific. It's not to be used if you're frustrated with the conference superintendent, or if you don't like paying your tithe those can be frustrations, but they're not causes to use 2553 only matters of human sexuality. So the main changes 

I think Chuck that are around that idea of disaffiliation and what it means to be together. I think that's the key, you know, for most of my Ministry the same arguments have been around. It's just that for some people they've reached a point where they don't believe we can serve together any longer and So that in my mind in my heart, that's a shame but it's also where they've been lead and so I honor that and I'm glad to be helpful in them being where they feel God's LED them to be.

Chuck: Okay, so officially as far as the stance regarding human sexuality nothing has changed – is that a good interpretation? 

Russ: That's correct.

Chuck: So you mentioned General Conference, and I got to tell you I'm a clergy person. I understand this at least kind of sort of and but there are there's a charge conference and then we even throughout the term occasionally have Church conference. We talk about the annual conference. We talk about General Conference. And so Russ. You probably get this question. I get this question anytime we talk about conferences. What is all this? So can you kind of just break those down a little bit like with all these conferences? What do they mean? What are they about? 

Russ: Yeah, absolutely and I start with one you didn't mention. And that's Christian conferencing. Christian conferencing is a way to be church together. It's a way to be in holy conversation with one another, and so Christian conferencing is something that we've kind of lost over the years and I hope that we reclaim it some most churches might displace somewhere the guidelines for Christian conferencing, and it gives you a way to have difficult conversations in terms of conferences. So let's start with General Conference. General Conference is a worldwide body made up of delegates from different annual conferences. There are an equal number of lay and clergy delegates and they gather every four years and it parallels. US presidential elections, so every year there's a presidential election. There's a General Conference almost the difference is there was a special and a General Conference in 2019. And then in 2020 we had did not have any or a General Conference because of COVID so the next General Conference is scheduled for 2024 in May.

And the thing to remember about General Conference is that they are the only group that can make changes to the book of discipline. So any change the book of discipline has to be part of the General Conference work. In 2024, we'll gather again, and it's really cool Chuck. Yreally don't have any idea the international nature, of the global of the United Methodist Church until you see like General Conference and people from all over the world gather. It's a wonderful thing. I've been to three General Conferences as a delegate and and thankful for them. So General Conference changes the book of discipline and gathers together to celebrate the worldwide nature the global nature of the United Methodist Church.

The annual conference you hear that term. I'm going to go to annual conference or most times. It's reduced it to conference. I'm going to go to conference or II'm the conference delegate the conference annual conference is two things. It's a geographical area. And it's also a meeting an annual meeting annual conferences function is to guide the policies and practices of that local area.

So for us, it's Indiana, Indiana's one conference and we send we send delegates to our to annual conference who are actually called members. So for that time, they're they're a group together and they're all members and they take action in regard to how we live in Indiana within the book of discipline. The annual conference has no power to change the book of discipline. And so we gather once a year and for that kind of legislative action, but also a lot of worship a lot of celebration and though as a superintendent, I would never participate in this kind of thing but a lot of outside-the-room fellowship among people and so what happens inside is a big part, but it's not the only part of annual conference. It's also time of connection.

So under and under annual conference, we have districts, which you've already talked about. And that's just another way. We can localize decision making and and Leadership. Maybe I'd add one thing. 

Chuck before I became a superintendent. I thought the main job of a superintendent was to make appointments. Well, the book of discipline gives us a different job as our primary task and that is to be the chief missional strategist. For the area we serve so that's an exciting thing to work in that way. The two other conferences I would mention so we've had General changes the book of discipline annual guides the the work and policy and practice of the of this area and then they're two that fall within that that happen at the individual Church level. 

The the first is a charge conference. So charge conference can be done for several reasons and a charge conference is only one church. So New Haven United Methodist Church would have a charge conference. We have those annually for all churches in the district. And so that's kind of a time to come together to worship to celebrate to elect folks. And while we do that oftentimes in a big group several churches together. Each church is taking individual action on their own for example leadership. or nominations report and but they're also special charge conferences.

So there are some things that that we as Methodists think are a little but above a normal decision to church level and so it creates a more formal moment. And for example, if you're selling a piece of property, that would be a charge conference and the members of a charge conference are the members of your church Council. The difference is everybody's welcome and has voice but only those charge conference or those Church council members have a vote. 

Then you mentioned occasionally and it was occasionally now, it's fair a little bit more frequent. And that is a church conference a church conference is when significant moments in the life of the church are being discerned and discussed and decided. 

So for example, if you're building a building if you're doing a building project, you want everybody every member the church to be a part of that decision-making process.Disaffiliation is another one disaffiliation requires a church conference and at a church conference every member present has a vote so if you've worshiped there 25 years, but never joined, we're glad you're here and you have full voice, but you just can't vote. So only members present get a vote. And again, it's just for those big moments.

Chuck: Which is, for us at New Haven, we did a big, it was a building project was kind of a remodeling project, but it was really big and so we had a church conference a while back for that.

So just a clarify, so when it comes to when I say polity structure, you mentioned book of discipline there. There are no changes that can be made. So if if my church or whatever Church said, well we decide we don't want to follow whatever rule anymore. We can't just do that that the only Body, I guess you could say that is allowed to change that is the General Conference. Which happens again? You said in May of 2024, is that correct? 

Russ: That is absolutely correct.

Chuck:  And that's what I mean. I was pretty sure of that one to make sure that so yeah the way the discipline which is our kind of our structure is set now that doesn't change until 2024 or it that doesn't mean it will change then it means it could change then if those who are there decide on that so I appreciate that a lot.

Chuck There have been and I know some Churches have made some decisions you talked about a church conference disaffiliation some have not I know for me in where we are. We have not had a conference to do that. But like any church there are a lot of Methodist churches out there. And so it's been a lot of well, we might not be meeting or voting but someone else that I know is a family member a friend and so the question has come up. Well if they're voting to disaffiliate or to decide does that mean we have to and so

I guess that's a question our churches expected to or required to get together to have a conference or vote at this time.

Russ: Yeah, that's that's a fantastic and extremely important question. So the answer is no. No one's required to take a vote right now. You don't have to vote to remain United Method. You are United Methodist and that hasn't changed.

Some Churches have decided that God's leading them in another path and have entered disaffiliation. But one of the things to remember is disaffiliation is 100% of voluntary act on the part of the local church.

Nobody's forcing you to disaffiliate. Nobody's asking you to take a vote. It's a voluntary act based on the discernment that that local church has made. Now, one of the things I say often, in fact every time I meet with a group that's considering or actually voting on disaffiliation is they need to know where my heart is as I come and it's simply this I refuse. I don't use that word very often, but I refuse to make this about enemies and friends. 

These moments are about faithful followers of Jesus Christ Discerning the best way to express their faith in that God has led them to. So that's the way I approach these moments and for some Churches, God's lead them to disaffiliate. And so I celebrate them. I pray a blessing on them and my role in that moment is not to talk them out of anything or into anything. It's to help them do what they believe God's called them to do and so.

That a good place for me to sit. I I think we need to be a part of that. I did have a disaffiliation vote in which somebody's said to me. Why are you making us leave? And I said we're not no one is you are choosing. It's your choice to take this action and that's really important to know so no, no one has to take a vote.

But if God leads you in that direction and you're in the district's I serve then I'm here to help you. Do what you believe God's calling you to do.

Chuck: Well, very good. That makes total sense to me, even though knowing I suppose depending on what happens at General Conference in two years in May of 2024 that could require more.

Okay, we have to decide do we do we align with what General Conference has decided or not? But for those of us like us just speaking for me at this point. Okay, nothing has changed. So we're there's no reason to make a change for us anyway, and so at that point we'll decide here's where the denomination is going and do we align with that or do we not align with that? Is that kind of  [what you’re saying?]

Russ:  Absolutely. My encouragement at every informational session that I do for disaffiliation is I encourage churches [wait until 2024] and make a decision based on the full information, but you know again, I'm not there to Sell anything or convince people.

I'm just there to share openly honestly and fully good accurate information so that they can make the best decision that they can.

You know take one of the things Chuck I think we miss sometimes in all this conversation because we get caught up in you know, we need to leave or we need to do this.

And what's the process and all that is that this also is creating an incredible opportunity.

For United Methodist’s, right? So if the church down the road votes to disaffiliate one of the things that probably does in your church is to say have you asked the question? Why do we exist? Why are we United Methodist and then get in touch again with those core theological and foundational understandings that we that we've held forever You know every time I hear somebody say, well, you know the United Methodist Church doesn't believe in the Trinity anymore, which is not true completely not true. And I go to the book of discipline the articles of faith and I read what we do believe about the Holy Trinity and it just kind of inspires me.

So in both the districts I serve we're starting new initiatives and we're welcoming people who are in churches that disaffiliate but individuals that want to stay United Methodist just offering them a place and looking forward to some new things.

That we think will be really exciting and will help reshape the way we understand Church in some places. So that's pretty exciting. 

Chuck: Yeah, definitely. So given all that, I got to tell yo,  I have a love-hate relationship, especially with social media because there's a lot of great things that happen a lot of connection a lot of information but not always the most accurate information and I feel like I always see well you've believed a lie, so here's the truth. And I think well was that or was that the truth or was that the truth and so with all the moving parts that's been happening and is currently happening and will happen over the next few years. 

What is the best place? I'm not knocking Facebook tiktok Instagram. I think that's great for what they're intended to be used for probably not the best place to get your information for something like this. So if someone says, okay, I've gotten a little bit here and I kind of get the general idea, but I really want to know a little bit more the details.

Where would they go to do that? How would they find out? What's really happening? Right? 

Russ: So I would offer a couple of sources one would be the conference website. There's there's wonderful information. I believe we'll have a link for to that that tells you all about the process all about disaffiliation. Another thing is read 2553 if you search any basically search any place online using UMC 2553 and it's gonna come up and you can read it and then you'll know exactly what it's about.

The other thing and I'll probably talk about this longer than I should but your superintendent.

Your superintendent is a place to go and I would encourage everybody. Whether you're in our annual conference in Indiana or somewhere else use your superintendents. Are we busy? Yeah, we're busy, but we're not too busy for the important stuff and I would encourage people to contact me through emails. Usually the best way and you know, we'll have a conversation invite me to come to your church. You know, I have wheels I can I can get there and you know, I think with that we the times I do that come and talk to folks in the local churches about disaffiliation. It's really helpful for everybody. You know, I learn about them and they get good accurate current information. So use your superintendents, you know, we're here to serve the church and

I just think that that's a good a good positive way to do that social media. I think it's wonderful in many ways, but I think sometimes people use it as kind of MNN or “My News Network” And so you sort of the content isn't checked anyway,

So as I said for me as a superintendent it's not my job to convince anybody to do anything. It's my job to make sure they had good if they have good information and then help them do what God's calling them to do.

So check the conference website at the link you'll see talk to your superintendent and just be thankful that God is a God who continues to Welcome All

The other thing that is helpful is go to the umc.org website and check out be UMC and there's some information there. That'll be helpful for you. So that those are the places I would go Chuck and I know it's a hard time. It's a really hard time and you hear a lot of different things. And so I may slip a little bit into preaching here for just a second.

So one of the things I would say is be cautious of anyone or any organization that tries to motivate you through fear. That this horrible thing is going to happen or you know, the United Methodist Church is going to take all the crosses down from their churches or you know one in my world know I can tell you emphatically no one of the United Methodist churches in the East District did not give their congregants Pen Knives and have them cut out particular pages of the Pew Bibles.

Chuck: Oh, well, that's good to know. 

Russ: No, so, you know be cautious of anybody or any group that tries to motivate you through fear and here and here's why I think that so first John 4 tells us that God is love right A lot of people know that past God is love. And then in that same chapter in first John 4. It says that perfect love casts out all fear.

So if God is love then the love the perfect love mentioned in first John 4 is God. So if God casts out all fear. Should you not be really cautiousa bout people who use fear to try to drive you to God? Because God drives out all fear.

Chuck: Very much so. To me that kind of just says it all like that that kind of levels it all out there and I would say thank you so much for offering yourself, and the conference is all admit. I'm a pastor and I know there are a lot of pastors some are more versed and they understand this more than I do. I'll be the first one to admit. I know some almost the idea the cliche I know enough to be dangerous. So if we're to ask me I'll tell you what I know and it's not the whole story. It's not everything that's happening. But I'll help you find that but I would say this that way for probably every past or there's so much to do. I can't be an expert on this but we do have resources. We have superintendents. We have our conference website the denomination website that will explain it. So that is great, and we'll link that in all of this when we send this out so that everybody can kind of find ways to do that.

But is there anything kind of we left unsaid or undone that you think it's very important that I share this or to make sure everyone knows whatever it may be. Is there something that we left out that you think is important for us to know?

Russ: 

So let me answer that by telling a little story. Not long ago in the other district I serve in the East District I contacted a rural two-point charge and said would you be interested, they need a pastor?

So would you be interested in an international pastor? AndI won't say the country because I don't want to give it all away. And they said well think about it. I said well why don't why don't when I bring him out and just you just meet him. And so I did that along with the connecting Shepherd that I work with in that area. And I pulled in pulled into the to church a little bit early and then a member of the congregation pulled in right after me and got out of her car immediately shut her door and then started walking with intention right toward me. Now just being honest I was like, oh my goodness. So this is what she said to me with tears in her eyes. 

She said we are so excited. About this opportunity and we're so thankful. We chose us to bring this pasture to so you asked me what else I want to share. I want to share that God is moving. I want to share the United methodists are welcoming people. I want to share that God is raising up new pastors from places that that some of us only imagine. I want to share with you that United Methodist Church is alive is vibrant is is moving into a future that God's preparing for us. And so this is a difficult season and I will not do anything to dismiss or diminish the pain that congregations go through when they're dealing with disaffiliations. It's real and it hurts. 

But God is still moving the United Methodist Church is still strong and we still have a mission to do here's how I put it now, I'll close with this Christianity were a neighborhood. And methodism was a street for me people that disaffiliate all they're doing is moving to another Street. They're not leaving the neighborhood. It's a big Kingdom out there. A lot of people that need to know Jesus. So let's do what we need to do but in the midst let's not lose sight of the fact that the scripture calls us and God expects us to share the good news of Jesus Christ with all whom we would meet

Chuck: Well, thank you so much. You've explained a lot and I know there's still I mean we couldn't go into every detail. So we'll link those and there are ways to get more information if anybody wants that and Russ is also available. I wouldn't say 24/7 but you can try that I suppose but thank you so much for taking time to answer these questions and just kind of explain some of what is happening and what isn't happening because there are a lot of questions. I can't be the only Pastor that gets these questions of because I hear this from someone else or from someplace else. And so what does that mean for me? And so this has been a great a great time to just kind of work through those and figure out what is and isn't happening and how we can get for more information. So thank you so much for your time. And if there are more questions go to those links go to our conference website go to the umc.org website, you can find out all kinds of stuff and and then again if you still have questions, there are To get answers. So ask your pastor ask and get links and find out how to get a hold of other people who probably know more than at least some of us pastors. Anyway, so Russ. Thank you so much for your time and for making this work today. I appreciate it. 

Russ: Absolutely Chuck and thank you for the invitation and thank you for your ministry.

Chuck: Thank you.